Laurie,
At tournaments owners would like to have their competing dogs adjusted at the end of the day, not wanting to 'waste' the adjustment.
Is there a refractory time after an adjustment, where the dog patient will receive the benefit and return to competition as with humans? Is there support documentation for this? I don't wish to adjust a patient and return an unstable joint to tournament level activity.
Thank you for your input. I love reading your news letter.
B.
Spinal manipulations
Re: Spinal manipulations
This is a great question. One I’d love to ponder further. Ponder is exactly that… because there is NO literature on dogs (or horse, or any animal for that matter) on this subject. The utter lack of information and research on the canine spine is appalling. So this kind of specificity is the stuff that only nerds like us think about!!! 
So I’d actually start by looking to the human research on stretching. Because with our mobilizations / manipulations, we are stretching ligaments, tendons, and small muscles around the spine and altering messaging of the golgi tendon organs and muscle spindles, I wonder if the same findings could apply. There is a study that looked at stretching having a deleterious effect on proprioception and aspects of performance (jump height, speed, etc.) if performed immediately before testing (or a real life activity). The deleterious effect lasted an hour (or that was when they stopped the study). We also know that manual therapy (mobs / manips) can have an inhibitory effect on low threshold mechanoreceptors and high threshold nociceptors. But does that impact performance in the same way? There’s a review paper I found:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29191288 but I’m not sure it makes any meaningful conclusions.
In my opinion, I think a treatment at the end of a day would be safe and not negatively affect sport performance the next day.
I have had a case or two in the past where I really had to work a hypomobile joint… and the dog was a bit sore for a day. So my regular clients are told to bring their dogs in on a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday if they have a competition / show on the weekend. I also tell my clients to not allow their dogs to have a big off leash romp on the same day as I do my mobs or manips, so that their soft tissues can settle in to how they are now expected to hold or function.
What is your protocol? I’d love to discuss more!
Laurie
So I’d actually start by looking to the human research on stretching. Because with our mobilizations / manipulations, we are stretching ligaments, tendons, and small muscles around the spine and altering messaging of the golgi tendon organs and muscle spindles, I wonder if the same findings could apply. There is a study that looked at stretching having a deleterious effect on proprioception and aspects of performance (jump height, speed, etc.) if performed immediately before testing (or a real life activity). The deleterious effect lasted an hour (or that was when they stopped the study). We also know that manual therapy (mobs / manips) can have an inhibitory effect on low threshold mechanoreceptors and high threshold nociceptors. But does that impact performance in the same way? There’s a review paper I found:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29191288 but I’m not sure it makes any meaningful conclusions.
In my opinion, I think a treatment at the end of a day would be safe and not negatively affect sport performance the next day.
I have had a case or two in the past where I really had to work a hypomobile joint… and the dog was a bit sore for a day. So my regular clients are told to bring their dogs in on a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday if they have a competition / show on the weekend. I also tell my clients to not allow their dogs to have a big off leash romp on the same day as I do my mobs or manips, so that their soft tissues can settle in to how they are now expected to hold or function.
What is your protocol? I’d love to discuss more!
Laurie
LAURIE EDGE-HUGHES
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David Lane
- Posts: 164
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:51 pm
Re: Spinal manipulations
So this is an interesting discussion….
FWIW I both manip and mob patients before, between, and after runs for both agility and whippet racing. I hadn’t considered the argument that performing manips would be akin to stretching in terms of egendering negative effects immediately preceding exercise. My concern was more in the understanding that lower back pain induces proprioceptive deficits in people, and presumably dogs, and the logical corollary to that would be that removing said pain would improve co-ordination and improve performance. Further, asking for sudden elongation in a hypertonic/inflexible/full of trigger points muscle is an excellent way to induce further injury. Therefore, the more muscles that I can improve the tone/flexibility/responsiveness on, the better.
Having said that, I am talking about patients with whom I have already worked, and rarely have severe issues at the time of treatment. For clients that have not been worked on before, I hesitate to do too much immediately before an event. The first time the Prince George agility club flew me up to work on their dogs, it was 2 days before a local trial, which I promptly ruined by informing over a dozen owners that after having done such extensive work on their dogs, they are not to compete for the next 3-4 days.
I also never do manual therapy as a sole treatment. Any comments about the pros and cons of combining it with acupuncture and laser are purely speculative until WAY more research has been done. All we know right now is that combined acu and manual therapy (CAMT) reduces stiffness, and improves walking, trotting, and jumping over the short term in clinically lame dogs (as well as improving anticlinal pressure algometry scores).
Subjective observation: Working IFCS worlds (along with CA McIntyre) was an excellent opportunity to observe dogs receiving intensive daily or multiple times/day treatment CAMT plus laser, and seeing how it improved their performance. Many of the dogs had multiple issues that were 1st addressed 2d before 5 straight days of competition. One dog was clinically lame. We watched those dogs palpate and perform better on a daily basis, despite actively competing at the time. The overall gold medal winner was adamant that her dog would not have achieved that success were it not for the treatments. The team coach and team mates could see observable improvement in that dog’s stridelength.
Bias and placebo effects are very real concerns in anecdotal stories, but at this point I’m going to continue with what seems to work in my hands, given the feedback I am seeing.
Anyone else have thoughts?
FWIW I both manip and mob patients before, between, and after runs for both agility and whippet racing. I hadn’t considered the argument that performing manips would be akin to stretching in terms of egendering negative effects immediately preceding exercise. My concern was more in the understanding that lower back pain induces proprioceptive deficits in people, and presumably dogs, and the logical corollary to that would be that removing said pain would improve co-ordination and improve performance. Further, asking for sudden elongation in a hypertonic/inflexible/full of trigger points muscle is an excellent way to induce further injury. Therefore, the more muscles that I can improve the tone/flexibility/responsiveness on, the better.
Having said that, I am talking about patients with whom I have already worked, and rarely have severe issues at the time of treatment. For clients that have not been worked on before, I hesitate to do too much immediately before an event. The first time the Prince George agility club flew me up to work on their dogs, it was 2 days before a local trial, which I promptly ruined by informing over a dozen owners that after having done such extensive work on their dogs, they are not to compete for the next 3-4 days.
I also never do manual therapy as a sole treatment. Any comments about the pros and cons of combining it with acupuncture and laser are purely speculative until WAY more research has been done. All we know right now is that combined acu and manual therapy (CAMT) reduces stiffness, and improves walking, trotting, and jumping over the short term in clinically lame dogs (as well as improving anticlinal pressure algometry scores).
Subjective observation: Working IFCS worlds (along with CA McIntyre) was an excellent opportunity to observe dogs receiving intensive daily or multiple times/day treatment CAMT plus laser, and seeing how it improved their performance. Many of the dogs had multiple issues that were 1st addressed 2d before 5 straight days of competition. One dog was clinically lame. We watched those dogs palpate and perform better on a daily basis, despite actively competing at the time. The overall gold medal winner was adamant that her dog would not have achieved that success were it not for the treatments. The team coach and team mates could see observable improvement in that dog’s stridelength.
Bias and placebo effects are very real concerns in anecdotal stories, but at this point I’m going to continue with what seems to work in my hands, given the feedback I am seeing.
Anyone else have thoughts?
David Lane DVM
ACVSMR, CVA, CVSMT, CCRP
ACVSMR, CVA, CVSMT, CCRP
Re: Spinal manipulations
I don't deep massage (equissage) or stretch my guys <48hours before a trial.
The vet I used to see to get MTP work said on leash for 48 hours.. the chiro usually says low impact for 48 hours too.
I will do some mobes on spines if they are sore on the day/previous night of trials, I havent seen any negative effects of this (anecdotal obviously).
Shockwave seems to take a couple of days before I notice better weighting, so probably wouldnt do that within 48 hours either.
Kriszty
The vet I used to see to get MTP work said on leash for 48 hours.. the chiro usually says low impact for 48 hours too.
I will do some mobes on spines if they are sore on the day/previous night of trials, I havent seen any negative effects of this (anecdotal obviously).
Shockwave seems to take a couple of days before I notice better weighting, so probably wouldnt do that within 48 hours either.
Kriszty
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David Lane
- Posts: 164
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:51 pm
Re: Spinal manipulations
To clarify, I also recommend casual exercise for 2-3d following routine treatment. By heavily exerting prior to that, they patient risks "undoing" the benefits and needing a repeat treatment. For owners that have bought a weekend package of unlimited treatments at an event, this isn't much of an issue...
And again, this is also for minor issues; if the dog has significant dysfunction then I will recommend pulling from competition. The difference between a minor issue and significant dysfunction is highly subjective though.
And again, this is also for minor issues; if the dog has significant dysfunction then I will recommend pulling from competition. The difference between a minor issue and significant dysfunction is highly subjective though.
David Lane DVM
ACVSMR, CVA, CVSMT, CCRP
ACVSMR, CVA, CVSMT, CCRP
Re: Spinal manipulations
I try to work on my patients (Mobs and acupuncture) the Wednesday or Thursday before a weekend trial, but I don't usually restrict their activity afterward.
I have done some on the Friday before a trial without issue--all regular patients that don't have any major dysfunctions.
I've never worked on a dog on a trial day, probably mostly out of fear that right after I touch the dog it will have the worst run of it's life and the owner will blame me
Diane
I have done some on the Friday before a trial without issue--all regular patients that don't have any major dysfunctions.
I've never worked on a dog on a trial day, probably mostly out of fear that right after I touch the dog it will have the worst run of it's life and the owner will blame me
Diane
Diane M Paster, DVM, DABVP, CCRT, CVPP, cVMA
Re: Spinal manipulations
I love the discussion that has taken place around this topic! Thank you everyone. I'm going to share the e-mail reply from the original question poser. It's also great information:
Laurie,
Thank you so very much for your reply.
I looked the the human side for return to sport timing. Almost all major sporting teams have a chiro on staff. They track the number of adjustment that the teams receive. In the NFL there is even a professional association of the chiros. Non of them talk about manipulation on the side lines.
My efforts came down to the attached, that I put to my VCLC group and other animal chiros.
Your opinion on treatment at the end of the day (or day before from some) seems to be the majority. This also goes for the dog/horse owners. The overall thinking was to "allow the joints, muscles and nervous system catch up with the adjustment." The same as your Golgi thinking.
So it seems I will be busy at the end of day after tournaments adjusting the athletic dogs.
Again thanks for your time. All the best to your husband. Thank you for sharing what you do.
B.
shared a link.
August 22 at 8:14 PM
Hey All Y 'all
Adjustment question. If you are adjusting at a competition how long to wait after the treatment before returning the athletic dog back to sport (ie dock diving, agility, etc)?
In this paper from our module one course
http://www.chiropratiquelasource.com/re ... r-2002.pdf
"The length of time between manipulation and the magnetic resonance imaging scan was not reported. In a study of the metacarpophalangeal joint, 5 minutes after cavitation joint separation was still increased by 0.4 mm and did not return to precavitation dimensions until 10 minutes after “cracking” [109]. It remains to be shown if joint separations of these magnitudes are sufficient to load the facet joint tissues. If so, this raises the possibility that tissues surrounding the facet joint could be stretched for periods of time longer than the duration of the manipulation itself"
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7c54/3 ... 4c350a.pdf
"Chiropractic is a conservative modality that may be applied repetitively over a set time period as the patient’s own recuperative abilities are used in the healing process to restore normal joint motion and neurologic function. This is often a confusing concept for most traditional practitioners accustomed to a ‘one-time-fix’ by utilizing potent medications or surgical procedures. Post-adjustment recommendations for actively training horses usually include stall rest or pasture turnout for one day. This provides an opportunity for the horse’s body to respond to the applied treatment without being exposed to potential inciting factors of the vertebral segment dysfunction. The horse is asked to return to normal work the next day unless other musculoskeletal injuries are present, then appropriate supportive care is recommended. "
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989393/
"In a similar article, Panter (2001) interviewed the chiropractor for the University of Tennessee Track and Field team, Dr. Michael Petty, on the topic of athletes under his care.7 Petty stated that “they (the athletes) were adjusted right before they competed, and all of a sudden they were hitting personal records
Evans (2005) emphasize this point by stating that although the “personal experiences delivered by often charismatic leaders are interesting or even impressive, they do not represent scientific evidence to prove or disprove a therapy"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4915469/
Single case study I could find of athlete treated during competition
https://chiromt.biomedcentral.com/artic ... 019-0246-y
"The preponderance of evidence suggests that SMT in comparison to sham or other interventions does not enhance performance-based outcomes in asymptomatic adult population. All studies are exploratory with immediate effects. In the few studies suggesting a positive immediate effect, the importance of such change is uncertain. Further high-quality performance specific studies are required to confirm these preliminary findings."
Do I wait 10 to 20 minute?
Do I wait a day?
The day before, end of day after competition?
Is there supporting documentation for this time?
Thank you for any input.
I do love working with these sport dogs and all dogs.
Thank you VCLC
Laurie,
Thank you so very much for your reply.
I looked the the human side for return to sport timing. Almost all major sporting teams have a chiro on staff. They track the number of adjustment that the teams receive. In the NFL there is even a professional association of the chiros. Non of them talk about manipulation on the side lines.
My efforts came down to the attached, that I put to my VCLC group and other animal chiros.
Your opinion on treatment at the end of the day (or day before from some) seems to be the majority. This also goes for the dog/horse owners. The overall thinking was to "allow the joints, muscles and nervous system catch up with the adjustment." The same as your Golgi thinking.
So it seems I will be busy at the end of day after tournaments adjusting the athletic dogs.
Again thanks for your time. All the best to your husband. Thank you for sharing what you do.
B.
shared a link.
August 22 at 8:14 PM
Hey All Y 'all
Adjustment question. If you are adjusting at a competition how long to wait after the treatment before returning the athletic dog back to sport (ie dock diving, agility, etc)?
In this paper from our module one course
http://www.chiropratiquelasource.com/re ... r-2002.pdf
"The length of time between manipulation and the magnetic resonance imaging scan was not reported. In a study of the metacarpophalangeal joint, 5 minutes after cavitation joint separation was still increased by 0.4 mm and did not return to precavitation dimensions until 10 minutes after “cracking” [109]. It remains to be shown if joint separations of these magnitudes are sufficient to load the facet joint tissues. If so, this raises the possibility that tissues surrounding the facet joint could be stretched for periods of time longer than the duration of the manipulation itself"
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7c54/3 ... 4c350a.pdf
"Chiropractic is a conservative modality that may be applied repetitively over a set time period as the patient’s own recuperative abilities are used in the healing process to restore normal joint motion and neurologic function. This is often a confusing concept for most traditional practitioners accustomed to a ‘one-time-fix’ by utilizing potent medications or surgical procedures. Post-adjustment recommendations for actively training horses usually include stall rest or pasture turnout for one day. This provides an opportunity for the horse’s body to respond to the applied treatment without being exposed to potential inciting factors of the vertebral segment dysfunction. The horse is asked to return to normal work the next day unless other musculoskeletal injuries are present, then appropriate supportive care is recommended. "
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989393/
"In a similar article, Panter (2001) interviewed the chiropractor for the University of Tennessee Track and Field team, Dr. Michael Petty, on the topic of athletes under his care.7 Petty stated that “they (the athletes) were adjusted right before they competed, and all of a sudden they were hitting personal records
Evans (2005) emphasize this point by stating that although the “personal experiences delivered by often charismatic leaders are interesting or even impressive, they do not represent scientific evidence to prove or disprove a therapy"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4915469/
Single case study I could find of athlete treated during competition
https://chiromt.biomedcentral.com/artic ... 019-0246-y
"The preponderance of evidence suggests that SMT in comparison to sham or other interventions does not enhance performance-based outcomes in asymptomatic adult population. All studies are exploratory with immediate effects. In the few studies suggesting a positive immediate effect, the importance of such change is uncertain. Further high-quality performance specific studies are required to confirm these preliminary findings."
Do I wait 10 to 20 minute?
Do I wait a day?
The day before, end of day after competition?
Is there supporting documentation for this time?
Thank you for any input.
I do love working with these sport dogs and all dogs.
Thank you VCLC